The Communications Office gets lots of questions through the contact form on presbyterian.ca. Most are inquiries for this or that resource or piece of information, but sometimes one comes along and makes us go, “Huh . . . ” (note: that’s a thoughtful “Huh”, not a nonplussed “Huh?” [although we get some of those, too]).
Here’s a good one asking about the nature of the Trinity. We thought we’d post it here for the benefit of others.
Hello,
I just read on your website this quote:
“As Presbyterians, we believe in the triune God. In other words, God is
one person and yet three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”Do you believe that God is three persons in one God or three Gods in one
person?Also, is belief in a triune God necessary for salvation as the Nicene
Creed tells us? I find zero scriptures that tell us that it is.
The Rev. Dr. Rick Fee, General Secretary of the Life and Mission Agency, consulted with The Reverend Dr Clyde Ervine, Minister at Central Presbyterian Church, Hamilton, Ontario and former Professor at Presbyterian College, Montreal, Quebec, and came up with this answer:
Thank you so much for your e-mail concerning the reference to God on our web-site. You have asked several critical and complicated questions. I hope what follows will help clarify.
As a Christian church, we believe in the triune God. That is what the website says and that is what is important to us. All sorts of people say they believe in God. But ‘god’ can be used in very generic ways. When Christians say ‘God’, they are naming God in a particular way, namely as the God of whom we read in both the Old and New Testaments, a God who is ultimately Creator, but also the Redeemer of a creation that has gone awry.
We believe that the ultimate creator God, in order to redeem creation, actually stepped into creation in human form, in the person of Jesus. And we believe too that Jesus, who is no longer visible, sent his Spirit to us whom we name as the Holy Spirit. God, for us, is certainly one, yet known through the persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As one might expect, God is a much more profound reality than the human mind might imagine.
You are quite correct in noting that the Bible doesn’t present a doctrine of God in a systematic fashion. But, to suggest that there is zero scripture relating to the triune nature of God, is going too far.
Scripture isn’t a philosophical treatise or even a theological one; it is essentially a narrative. But in narrative form, what unfolds is an ever-enlarging picture of God, whom we know first of all as a largely hidden, transcendent deity, but whose real and loving nature is slowly revealed through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Admittedly, any human language for God remains human, and can never do justice to the heights and depths of who God is. But the church has not come up with a better way of describing God than by insisting that God is one and indivisible, yet within Gods-self, a perfect, eternal community of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
This is the God we worship and serve, and this is the God whom we believe will save this world. As to whether it is necessary for salvation that we understand the triune nature of God, that question is surely answered over and over again in the negative. That is, all through the Old Testament, before the full, triune nature of God had been revealed, all sorts of people trusted in the God about whom they did know. And that is a good way of approaching others today who are worshippers of God, but do not know God’s triune nature. Though believing Jesus to be the fullness of God in human form, or as the Bible says, the Light of the World, we do not dismiss the presence of God’s light before the coming of Jesus, nor in other places and people who know nothing yet of Jesus.
I hope this helps to answer your thoughtful query.
And by the way, the wording on our web-site might need a slight change so that it reads: “In other words, God is one God, yet revealed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit”.
This site is one of 90 on the
January 27th, 2010 on 11:15 am
That is a very thoughtful response to the questions on the nature of the Trinity, but it failed to address the final question that results in a misunderstanding (or mis-reading) of the Nicene Creed. Neither Scripture nor the Nicene Creed tell us that belief in the Triune God is necessary for salvation – in that the questioner is correct – but the language and imagery that we choose to express our belief is (in good Reformed fashion) molded by what we find in Scripture – and that includes the Creeds…which (in the case of the Nicene) talks of Salvation in these terms after the statement of belief “…in one lord Jesus Christ…”:
“Who, for us [men] for our salvation, …”
Salvation (to my mind) is understood in light of the work of the completeness of God, Father Son, Spirit, to which all of Scripture is witness.
January 28th, 2010 on 12:41 pm
Hello Matt,
Appreciate the feedback on my question from Dr. Rick Fee.
I did believe my question was critical but did not want to make it complicated or confusing. The definition of the Trinity is often confusing even to those who claim to believe and accept it. Case in point, this website itself does not correctly articulate the true trinity doctrine as Dr. Rick Fee pointed out. God is one “being” and three persons exist in that “being” according to trinitarian dogma.
I do find this spelled out in post-biblical creeds but NOT in the holy sacred documents, God’s inspired Word the Bible.
Dr. Rick was right again when he said that the God of the OT was not known as a Triune God but where in the NT do we find such a teaching? Because the Father, His Son and God’s holy spirit are mentioned together does not have to mean they make up the very same entity does it?
Abraham, Issac and Jacob are mentioned together. So are God, the Son and the holy angels? (1 Timothy 5:21) What about Peter, James and John?
What was not addressed clearly was this: “Is belief in a Trinity God necessary for salvation ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE NOW?
I do find Scriptures telling us that we MUST believe that Jesus is the Son of the living God in order to be saved.
(1 John 5:13) There is no way around it. Christ Jesus, the Son of the true God, is God’s means of saving obedient mankind this is for sure.
To put it as simply as possible, “Where does it tell me in the Bible, OT or NT, where God’s people-Christians are taught or told to accept such an idea as a Three in one God? The creed of Israel says that God is One. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Jesus restated this creed and did not add or elaborate any further light or revealing information by trying to explain that this has changed. (Mark 12:29) Or the understanding of God’s identity has.
I guess my friendly challenge to anyone out there is please produce undeniable scriptural proof that God would reveal his identity as something else or more than he already has seem fit to do earlier and I will carefully consider the evidence yet further.
With deep respect,
Nick Batchelor
January 28th, 2010 on 12:44 pm
Hello Jeff,
I am sorry but you are mistaken. The Nicene Creed DEMANDS belief in a Trinity for salvation. The Inspired Bible DOES NOT. That is the differance. Go back and reread the post-biblical Nicene creed carefully. Not a Bible teaching.
Sincerely,
Nick
January 28th, 2010 on 5:08 pm
Hello Nick
Though the creed speaks in very strong language (developed from a certain understanding of Scripture), it is really the institutional church that DEMANDS belief in the creed – the creed makes no demands (though it causes some excellent discussions) – and if you re-read my response you will notice that I agree that Scripture does not demand our belief in the Trinity as a condition of salvation…
But did the doctrine of Trinity come from Scripture…the answer is a resounding yes.
Peace
Jeff
January 29th, 2010 on 5:35 pm
Hi there Jeff,
Great interaction. We both agree that the Holy Scriptures do NOT demand our belief in the Trinity as a condition of salvation despite what many Trinitarians insist. I respect your reasonableness.
What do you think of some of the last few words of the Athanasian Creed which states, “He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity”???
I would think that this “Church creed” is making a demand and any baptized schoolboy can see this.
Lastly, you sound very confident that the doctrine of the Trinity is taught from Scripture. I cannot be.
Can you tell me where, where is the idea of “three persons” in one God clear for all to see in the holy inspired writings?
List three texts I can refer to and we can go from there.
I really would appreciate this.
Sincerely,
Nick
January 31st, 2010 on 7:48 pm
Gee Nick – you talk about Trinitarians like we were some aberrant form of faith. I’ve never had a Trinitarian insist that they held the secret to my salvation – nor would I listen long if they did.
The doctrine of the ‘three-personed-God’ is an attempt from within the community of faith to work out what is being revealed in the whole of Scripture. Granted, there are more than three manifestations of God-ness in Scripture; what about God’s mothering side? What about the shepherd? The personification of Wisdom in Proverbs – what do we do with that?
There are not three (nor thirty-three) definitive texts that lay out, clearly and undeniably, the doctrine of the Trinity. There are, a series of texts in which thoughtful and faithful people have found evidence of God’s manifesting God’s-self as Creator (or father, if you’d like), Christ (Son)and Spirit. You will find these carefully listed within the subordinate standards of the Presbyterian Church in Canada – most accessibly in Living Faith (find the hard copy with the scriptural references listed in the back for each section).
I’m not making light of your request – I’m admitting that what you ask is (in my opinion) neither possible nor desirable. My discovery of the wonders and mystery of the divine cannot be reduced to three (and don’t think that I don’t appreciate the symbolism) crystal clear references – I’m required to extend my search – to trust those who have searched before me, and trust the leading of the Spirit – and wonder of wonders, my discoveries continue.
Blessings on your quest
Jeff
February 1st, 2010 on 7:15 am
Hi Jeff,
It was nice of you to point me to a website but I asked YOU what 3 Scriptures (top proof texts) YOU felt proved what you feel “RESOUNDINGLY” proves a three in one God, a Trinity? Admittedly you say this is impossible. However, the Bible simply tells us that there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6)
Yes, God has many attributes, qualities, and titles but this has nothing to do and does not relate to the topic of whether or not God is one or three in one.
When you ask “the personification of wisdom what are we to with that?” does not make God mysterious or more than a Trinity? Obviously, the Son was “wisdom personified” and as Proverbs 8 brings out “brought into existence.”
Whatever you decide to believe there is one unshakable truth, Jesus in not the “only true God” to whom he prayed. (John 17:3) He is the Son of the living true God, the Most High, His Father. There is ALWAYS someone who is God to Christ. I do urge you to rexamine your current believe of a Trinity in the light of God’s Word.
If you ever have any questions on a Bible text on this topic or something to share feel free to write me directly.
Respectfully,
Nick
nickhawaii@gmail.com
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 1:3)
February 1st, 2010 on 11:06 am
Dear Nick
I’m sorry that you feel the need to reduce this otherwise engaging discussion to a proof text war – I’m not playing that game.
Actually, the idea that God has many attributes, and is differently manifested throughout Scripture has EVERYTHING to do with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
The truth is beyond us. It’s far too deep.
(Ecc 7:24)
Peace
Jeff
Just as our common interests cannot compel our friendship,
neither should our differences of opinion make us enemies.
February 1st, 2010 on 1:38 pm
Hello Jeff,
I write to generate light not heat. No battle of the Bibles intended. Want you to recognize that the Bible was written to “set things straight” and that God is not the author of confusion. Obviously we cannot know everything about God and his ways as the congregator Soloman correctly said.
But we do not have to guess about who God is and his identity. When people tell me the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery the only mysterious thing I believe is their way of reasoning because the Bible is clear, Jesus is not the same being or entity of “the only True God.” Can God have a God? Jesus, the Son of God has a God to him.
This is what is VERIFIABLE in Scripture. This is taught in the Bible but explained away by many. I believe this is what sincere Presbyterian’s need to deal with since they do advocate that the Trinity is a central teaching of the Bible. It isn’t.
I do not consider you my enemy by no means. I can tell you are a very intelligent and respectful person who just needs to prayerfully consider the full Scriptural facts in your ongoing search for truth. Remember we must worship God with spirit and truth just as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well. (John 4)
Sincerely,
Nick
February 1st, 2010 on 3:55 pm
Nor do I consider you an enemy Nick, but we clearly differ in our understanding of the development of doctrine and the relationship of doctrine to Scripture. My Studies and my understanding of the confessional and theological history of the Presbyterian Church assures me that our doctrinal positions are not opinions, they are Scripturally justified. That does not mean that one can find a word-for-word duplication of such doctrines in Scripture – but that prolonged study of Scripture (under the guidance of the Spirit of God) produces such insight, wisdom and doctrine that helps us understand and articulate our faith.
I am always considering Scripture carefully, because I’m aware that Scriptures tell the story of God through the words, experiences and insights of God’s people.
I can say no better than Dr. Fee in his initial reply to your question:
- “Scripture isn’t a philosophical treatise or even a theological one; it is essentially a narrative. But in narrative form, what unfolds is an ever-enlarging picture of God, whom we know first of all as a largely hidden, transcendent deity, but whose real and loving nature is slowly revealed through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Admittedly, any human language for God remains human, and can never do justice to the heights and depths of who God is. But the church has not come up with a better way of describing God than by insisting that God is one and indivisible, yet within Gods-self, a perfect, eternal community of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
Peace
Jeff
February 1st, 2010 on 4:58 pm
Hi Jeff,
Here’s the thing. God found fit to express who he is and that he is only one, not a three in one God. We do not have to step outside the boundaries of the Scriptures to find “a better way” of describing God as an “eternal community” tri-plex God.
No such language is expressed in the entire inspired Word. Nothing describes what you are trying to say exists in the Bible. Perhaps, in your “Church” but not in the holy writings. This is my point. Many post-biblical writings I believe are filled with many unproven assumptions.
Could you answer me from the BIBLE how God can have a God? I cannot imagine the Most High ever having a God that he himself worships. If Christ is an equal to God as the Trinity doctrine teaches, who is he worshipping? A part of himself? Can you explain this to me by not relying on a man-made definition but from the Bible itself?
Thanks,
Nick
February 1st, 2010 on 5:20 pm
Well Nick
Since the Bible itself is a man-made explanation of the God-experience of a particular people, I sense we are stuck. Since doctrine of the church teaches that not only is Christ equal to God, but that Christ is God, then I expect the question that need to be posed here is who made Jesus “Christ” (which is, after all, a title, not a name).
The deeper we go – the worse it gets, eh?
Jeff
February 2nd, 2010 on 5:09 am
Hi Jeff,
If someone is “stuck” or in a hole that is getting deeper it is not I. I can support my conclusion, not with a man-made explanation, but from God’s Son who had God’s spirit when he simply said, “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)
This does not make me think that Christ thought of himself as God’s equal. For he, the Son, has someone who is God over him. Not just when he was a human as Trinitarians insist, but even after his glorious ascension to heaven.
(Revelation 3:12)
Christ, God’s annointed one, does have an exalted position and is superior over everyone. But there is an exception. The Son does sit at God’s right hand but not above the Supreme one, his God and Father. The one whom he will hand over the Kingdom back to once he accomplishes God’s purpose. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
As Dr. Rick Fee seems to understand the term “god” can be used in a generic way. Better to be said, “in a broad sense.” “God” actually means a powerful or mighty one. Jesus was certainly that.
However, he was not “The only true God,” in the fullest, ultimate sense. (John 17:3) For instance, I can say I am a president of a company and you could readily understand and accept that. But when we talk about “the president,” of the U.S we know we are talking about President Obama. This is the way the Bible speaks about the Father, the God of Christ. They DO NOT makeup the same being.
This is not hard to see. For instance, who is the most High described in the original Hebrew text in Psalms 83:18? Can you check. Who is the “son of the Most High” as described in Luke 1:32? The Son is not the “Most High.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
You ask, “Who made Jesus “Christ” which is a title not a name?” Since “Christ” means “annointed one” it had to be His God and Father the one who did the annointing. The one who sent his Messianic Son. (John 3:16) Jesus said he lives because of this One, his Father. (John 6:57)
To wrap this up, for the most Scriptural, direct answer to your last question you posed, all we have to do is turn to Acts 2:36 where it plainly states, “…know for a certainty that GOD made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.” There it is!
Yes, these are human words, but they are INSPIRED by God so that we can get it and understand what God is wanting to convey. If we are a true Christian we can confidently say what others can’t, “We worship what we know.” (John 4:22)
Respectfully,
Nick
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in GOD, exercise faith also in me.” (Jesus-John 14:1)
February 2nd, 2010 on 11:55 am
Nick
This is the games I said I wouldn’t play, but is this the same Son who said ‘Have faith in me when I say that the Father is one with me and that I am one with the Father. Or else have faith in me simply because of the things I do.
(John 14:11)
Just checking…
Jeff
February 2nd, 2010 on 3:45 pm
Hi Jeff,
This isn’t a game. We are doing what Paul encouraged all Christians, “Prove all things and hold fast to what is true.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
Yes the Son did say he was “one” with the Father. (John 10:30)
But how are they “one” Jeff? Jesus HIMSELF tells us that WE should be one, “JUST AS” or (in the same way) the Son and the Father are “one.” WE are invited to be “one” with both God and His Son. One in “being” or “person?” Is this what Jesus meant? (John 17:20-23)
Or could he be speaking about being united in love,thought,and purpose? I highly recommend a word study of the Bible usage of the Greek word for “one” (HEN) and you will discover quickly the “oneness” Jesus had with His Father does not demand one to think he is equal or is part of the very same individual as his Father. This is worth checking out or rechecking.
Could you at least address my previous question? “Who is the Most High? Who is Son of the Most High?
This is what I constantly face when talking with someone who advocates the Trinity doctrine. They completely ignore my question and just pretend nothing happened. Since I can’t change their mind they just change the subject.
I hope you are different.
Respectfully,
Nick
February 2nd, 2010 on 4:02 pm
Jeff,
I wanted to share one more thought regarding John 10:30, the highly respected John Calvin said in his book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is …of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”
Food for thought.
Nick
February 2nd, 2010 on 4:32 pm
Nick
I guess that I am no different than all those other stubborn Trinitarians whose minds you could not change. I thought we were engaged in a dialogue – the sort that can (occasionally) enlarge our horizons and help us find new ways to encounter old ideas. I have (earlier) admitted that our approach to scripture is different – you would clearly prefer that it was the same You insist on making it a contest so that your opponent’s minds are changed. While I am grateful for the stimulation this exchange has provided – it has become a little one-sided for me.
Peace
Jeff
February 2nd, 2010 on 4:41 pm
More food for thought -
John Calvin was(a very well respected) Trinitarian.
Jeff
February 3rd, 2010 on 5:14 am
Hello Jeff,
You admit to being a stubborn Trinitarian. That is what I have seem to across most of the time. Trinitarians are like cement, firmly set but all mixed up.
Seriously, of course when some dialogues with someone on a Scriptural topic they try to reason and persuade them if they feel the individual has either been misled or is uninformed of the full facts. I am not trying to force feed you to believe me or anything. Just a friendly challenge to reevaluate your belief in what I believe to be a very strange and false concept of who or what God is.
Again, instead you sidestep my questions and completely ignore the evidence I just presented you. If you can’t refute it why not concede to the possibility that the scriptural response I shared with you could indeed be a very liable and at the least an alternative yet Scripturally consistent understanding.
I have many very scholarly comments I have compiled on John 10:30. The reason I sent you John Calvin’s quote is Presbyterian’s highly esteem his viewpoint and that he is Trinitarian. Yet anyone can see that he has said exactly what I have said regarding the passage under consideration. What I find is many Trinitarian’s are in disagreement with themselves on many so called “proof texts” for the Trinity.
I realize you have a belief system to protect but why not take a more objective approach to this controversial, yet highly significant topic?
Would you please try or attempt to answer my questions the way I did yours?
Let God be true,
Nick
February 3rd, 2010 on 9:41 am
Look, Nick
I’ve told you already – I can’t give you what you want. I refuse to use Scripture the way you use Scripture – it is not in me to take the proof text approach to prove my point – because I’m not trying to change your mind – I’m only trying to tell you where I’m coming from. Because I don’t hold the same convictions, you think I am close-minded – review this series of threads and ask yourself “who is more stubborn?”
My understanding of God, my acceptance of key Christian doctrines, are all developing through careful consideration of the intersection between scripture and life experience. I am a curious Christian – the challenge for me is in the question – and I long ago accepted that my poor explanations were never going to change the mind of those whose certainty was unshakable.
You have a belief system that doesn’t admit the Trinity – good for you! The concept of God is considered feeble and false by a good many people, but my acceptance of feeble human explanations for the inexplicable nature of the divine lets me sleep just fine.
Objectivity cuts both ways, brother.
Peace
Jeff
February 3rd, 2010 on 1:45 pm
Hi there Jeff,
Thanks for telling me your honest feelings. Just to let you know that I am definitely not interested in one-sided research. I have very carefully and methodically spent hundreds of hours examining the doctrine and origin of this widely-accepted but false teaching of a Trinity.
I am not saying you are close-minded for not holding my same view. What I am saying is you do not face the questions and texts I sent you head on. And still haven’t after my repeated request. Don’t want to waste your time or mine and sound redundant. Please know that I am very willing to go over every so called, “Proof text” of this doctrine systematically. In the future, if you decide to do this I think you will quickly see the arguments you subscribe to do not hold up under closer scrutiny.
In the mean time, if you ever come up with a Scriptural explanation on just how Jesus has a God yet is also that God let me know as well. I would love to hear it. I will continue praying to and worshiping the God Jesus taught us to pray and worship, His Father the “only true God.” (John 17:3) And I would ask you to be cautious about calling anyone, including His Son, God’s equal. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Best wishes,
Nick